Curse

Tenebrae · Nov 12, 2009, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

As I have said many times before - broken things such as SF or Ursan or whatever are actually a way to reduce the grind.
If you need to do an area 20 times to get the reward, and it takes an hour to do that area when played with a non-gimmick, but takes 10 minutes when played with a gimmick - that means that the player reaches the goal 6 times faster by using the gimmick solution.
Seriously, try max the Luxon title in PvE without resorting to gimmicks. You need to just what - VQ the WHOLE Jade Sea some 40 or 50 times?
.

Oh you mean title grinding ? yeah , with SF and 600/smite that time is lowered but ectos farm , gems farm , elite tomes farm , orr emblems farm and bla bla bla farm no . If you are farming X and with with SF you can farm more X per hour .... i can assure you that the farmer will farm the same time or even MORE because its easy.

Anyway , those farms are not the real problem , the real problem is reducing drastically the times in wich you do X "challenge" ... wich are no challenge at all due to SF and 600/smite. Ofc there are other "broken" stuff in this game but SF is the number 1 on the list. ( im not telling this to you upier , i know you know it

).

qvtkc · Nov 12, 2009, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

So, am I all for an SF nerf? I think the skill is stupid and the team compositions horrendous, but nerfing it and doing nothing else isn't going to help the game.

It would, actually. People keep forgetting that it's not limited to UW. In fact, if SF was only used for farming ecto in UW, I wouldn't have any more problems with it than I have problems with it any more than I have a problem with Vital Blessing or Dust Trap.

But it's not just UW, it's everywhere. And nerfing SF isn't the ultimate answer for everything, but only because there is no ultimate answer. It would be a good step to take, though.

Bryant Again · Nov 12, 2009, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

It would, actually. People keep forgetting that it's not limited to UW. In fact, if SF was only used for farming ecto in UW, I wouldn't have any more problems with it than I have problems with it any more than I have a problem with Vital Blessing or Dust Trap.

But it's not just UW, it's everywhere. And nerfing SF isn't the ultimate answer for everything, but only because there is no ultimate answer. It would be a good step to take, though.

The ultimate answer is there, it's just big and difficult and is completely unlikely to happen: Fix PvE. Long-term and widespread effects like boosting AI and brushing up enemy builds/team compositions is what it would take to have a much more meaningful PvE experience.

Long term wise, I don't see SF's nerf doing much. There's too much imba in PvE. Just like Ursan was, SF is only the tip of the iceberg, and all that's happening is it getting chipped away each time it gets bigger.

upier · Nov 12, 2009, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Oh you mean title grinding ? yeah , with SF and 600/smite that time is lowered but ectos farm , gems farm , elite tomes farm , orr emblems farm and bla bla bla farm no . If you are farming X and with with SF you can farm more X per hour .... i can assure you that the farmer will farm the same time or even MORE because its easy.

Anyway , those farms are not the real problem , the real problem is reducing drastically the times in wich you do X "challenge" ... wich are no challenge at all due to SF and 600/smite. Ofc there are other "broken" stuff in this game but SF is the number 1 on the list. ( im not telling this to you upier , i know you know it

).

The problem is the lower end.
Needing to open 10k chests, or getting 2,5 mil lucky points, or 10 mil donated Luxon faction, ... that's the low end of the title that matters.
And it's these goals that should be obtainable.
And they are not currently.
(Also keep in mind that stuff like ecto gets you booze, sweets, lockpicks, HoM weapons, ... so this isn't just limited to things you advance directly.)

What SF (among other broken things) does it make this easier to achieve. But you are right - considering the ease, it also has the potential to cause problems once this low end is obtained. People will rush out and farm more crap, not because they need it, but because it is easy.
Had they fixed it the right way - by keeping the difficulty while reducing the number of times this needs to be completed, we should see less negative effects (as I have said - instead of 20 10 minut runs, ask that something should be done 4 times BUT it takes an hour to do it).
The problem is that they said that they feel that the way titles are currently designed is acceptable - so I do not see something like that happening. Which means that by nerfing these farming tools - these goals become harder to obtain or out of reach for a plot of players.
And that is not good for a game that is in this state.

And no, SF isn't No.1 on my list of most broken things.
Grind is.
Remove the need why players resort to this crap and there will be no good reason to keep it in the game.

lustnlood · Nov 12, 2009, 11:12 AM // 11:12

to be honest there are degrees of farming. there are situations where SF is overpowering such as is the case in the FoW SC. However, as is the case in UW there are the skeletons of Dhuum which make SF completely useless.

What i am trying to say is that there are cases where SF is abused, but there is another scenario where it doesnt affect the gmae situation and economy such as is with the perma SF raptor farm... that it not abusive.

the rest is up to your own personal discretion

Tenebrae · Nov 12, 2009, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The problem is the lower end.
Needing to open 10k chests, or getting 2,5 mil lucky points, or 10 mil donated Luxon faction, ... that's the low end of the title that matters.
And it's these goals that should be obtainable.
And they are not currently.
(Also keep in mind that stuff like ecto gets you booze, sweets, lockpicks, HoM weapons, ... so this isn't just limited to things you advance directly.)

Dear god you tell me , im about 1500 chests away to lose my mi... i mean , get the treasure hunter title and almost 1mill of lucky away from max ..... thats insane. Even thou , i would not want a new quest with 10 chests that can be done in 8-10 mins with SF , see my point ?.
Some titles got to be harder , grinder or whatever and im in for making them more easy to obtain but SF or <insert other broken combo> is not the way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The problem is that they said that they feel that the way titles are currently designed is acceptable - so I do not see something like that happening. Which means that by nerfing these farming tools - these goals become harder to obtain or out of reach for a plot of players.

Well , nerfing or reworking SF will not be all butterflies and roses . UB nerf brought slower DoA farms and slower Norn rep farms but life goes on. Like i said above , im in to make some grinding titles less hard ( or time consuming ) to achieve but SF and broken stuff is not the way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And no, SF isn't No.1 on my list of most broken things.
Grind is.
Remove the need why players resort to this crap and there will be no good reason to keep it in the game.

Sure why not but pwning SF its hell lot easier ( and fair ) than reworking the way that 3-7 titles should be obtained.

qvtkc · Nov 12, 2009, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

As I have said many times before - broken things such as SF or Ursan or whatever are actually a way to reduce the grind.

You'd be right if it was not for content devaluation. As long as maxed Luxon title or whatever isn't commonplace, many will simply skip it because it's not in their reality.

When seen that way, SF and UB and such are good things, right? They open new possibilities... WRONG. Because, now suddenly you need to get that maxed Luxon title and so on. Of course, it's optional, but even the most grindy game ever is optional.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Plus, it's PvE so if I don't bring it into my instance - it won't be there.

Yeah... You better not open your skills list, or even start thinking of how to improve your play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The ultimate answer is there, it's just big and difficult and is completely unlikely to happen: Fix PvE. Long-term and widespread effects like boosting AI and brushing up enemy builds/team compositions is what it would take to have a much more meaningful PvE experience.

Long term wise, I don't see SF's nerf doing much. There's too much imba in PvE. Just like Ursan was, SF is only the tip of the iceberg, and all that's happening is it getting chipped away each time it gets bigger.

PvE, imba? Of course it is. And it always was. Even simple skills that have existed since 2005 are imba in PvE (Spiteful Spirit, I'm looking at you). But some of that is ok, because in PvE, we are the heroes who save the world, after all. I completely agree that the AI should be fixed, though. In fact, that alone would correct some (but not all) of the imbalance caused by SF: If enemies stop bunching up around a perma sin once they understand that they can't kill him, SF would lose a lot of potential as a farming skill. Even then, though, it would be overpowered and imbalanced.
However I fear that an AI boost won't happen until GW2. If even then.

Back on topic. Just like Ursan was, SF is just the tip of the iceberg, I agree. But does that mean you should leave that iceberg alone to sink your ship? No. Just like Ursan was, SF is a problem. Ursan was nerfed, and that helped the situation. What to do about SF?

upier · Nov 12, 2009, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Dear god you tell me , im about 1500 chests away to lose my mi... i mean , get the treasure hunter title and almost 1mill of lucky away from max ..... thats insane. Even thou , i would not want a new quest with 10 chests that can be done in 8-10 mins with SF , see my point ?.
Some titles got to be harder , grinder or whatever and im in for making them more easy to obtain but SF or <insert other broken combo> is not the way.

I do not mind harder titles.
As long as they are in touch with the reality of the game.
As I have said, VQing the whole Jade Sea 40 times isn't in touch with the reality of the game. On the other hand - something like max Sunspear is! You get that title by VQing all the areas that give you Sunspear points.
Sure, since one is an account-wide title that can also be obtained though PvP, you can't do a 1:1 comparison. Maybe 5 or 10 vs 1. (You'd need to VQ all Luxon areas on 5 or 10 characters to max it.) It would be a bit steep, but if you VQ a bit, do some PvP on the side, the title would actually be obtainable without some heavy ass grinding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Well , nerfing or reworking SF will not be all butterflies and roses . UB nerf brought slower DoA farms and slower Norn rep farms but life goes on. Like i said above , im in to make some grinding titles less hard ( or time consuming ) to achieve but SF and broken stuff is not the way.

Sure why not but pwning SF its hell lot easier ( and fair ) than reworking the way that 3-7 titles should be obtained.

The question is - are you willing to give up this shortcut that makes this less grindy for the chance of a change? Do you trust A.Net enough that they will fix the game?
I don't.
That's why I'd rather stick with the broken crap until they present a solution to the problem.
And if they don't - I still have my shortcut.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

You'd be right if it was not for content devaluation. As long as maxed Luxon title or whatever isn't commonplace, many will simply skip it because it's not in their reality.

When seen that way, SF and UB and such are good things, right? They open new possibilities... WRONG. Because, now suddenly you need to get that maxed Luxon title and so on. Of course, it's optional, but even the most grindy game ever is optional.

You come on these forums and you have most people yelling that any armour and any title is worth nothing.
Unless it's a specific PvP title.
The rewards are worth nothing, yet the way to them is still designed as if they actually mattered.

Plus GW is going to be dead in 2 years.
Which means the players need to earn their bonuses by that time. Even some players that played since the start will not max out the titles in these 6 years!
Imagine if somebody just starts playing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Yeah... You better not open your skills list, or even start thinking of how to improve your play.

That would mean that there are better options than SF.
So if they are, why nerf it?

If I am trying to achieve maximum efficiency, I'll use the best options.
If am playing for fun, I'll use the what I have fun with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Back on topic. Just like Ursan was, SF is just the tip of the iceberg, I agree. But does that mean you should leave that iceberg alone to sink your ship? No. Just like Ursan was, SF is a problem. Ursan was nerfed, and that helped the situation. What to do about SF?

Yeah, partying BLOSSOMED after Ursan was killed!
Well, it actually did.
With SF.

Bryant Again · Nov 12, 2009, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

PvE, imba? Of course it is. And it always was. Even simple skills that have existed since 2005 are imba in PvE (Spiteful Spirit, I'm looking at you). But some of that is ok, because in PvE, we are the heroes who save the world, after all. I completely agree that the AI should be fixed, though. In fact, that alone would correct some (but not all) of the imbalance caused by SF: If enemies stop bunching up around a perma sin once they understand that they can't kill him, SF would lose a lot of potential as a farming skill. Even then, though, it would be overpowered and imbalanced.
However I fear that an AI boost won't happen until GW2. If even then.

Back on topic. Just like Ursan was, SF is just the tip of the iceberg, I agree. But does that mean you should leave that iceberg alone to sink your ship? No. Just like Ursan was, SF is a problem. Ursan was nerfed, and that helped the situation. What to do about SF?

Perhaps I should have put a "massive" before the imba in this case. PvE is "imba" as in "horrendously broken beyond *#%*ing belief". There are tons of massively powerful, brainless builds in this side of the game.

While it was still horrendous implementation, the premise behind Ursan was pretty interesting: an attempt to make all classes equally desired. Unfortunately, they did not follow up on balancing classes. Not only that they buffed PvE skills as well.

But none of that's going to get fixed. The only way that ANet is (sadly) making more classes viable is buffing them to overpowered and back. They do not take a broader view of the game. They only respond to what the mob wants changed the most.

I'd only appreciate the nerf if it was the start of a snowball effect that lead up to the balancing of the game, but seeing ANet openly endorsing farming, that's really never going to happen.

As is, for me, nerfing SF is like trying to put out a burning house with a drop of water.

WarcryOfTruth · Nov 12, 2009, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tastyy

The introduction of the SF-sin was mainly to farm UW as it yielded the most benefit. Ectos dropped a bit, but seemed to always be at 6k/ea.

Wtf? Arena Net did not make the skill so that players would "farm UW". It was made so that players could find parties easier in any area, which was Ursan Blessing's goal. The problem with it now, is that players seem to think the whole GW world revolves around Shadow Form. Everyone thinks that an area is impossible to do unless there Shadow Form is used, which I disagree with, because I clear all sorts of areas, HM dungeons, Urgoz, Missions or whatever, without one. I refuse to party with a Shadow Form Assassin because of this reason. Shadow Form makes the game easy, and I play this game for the challenge, I want to feel like I earned my money and my titles, and having a Shadow Former means I just had some "invulnerable" guy hold aggro with no monk support, then have 3-4 guys destroy them. I would feel like the money was given to me, and I am not one to enjoy taking something like that.

qvtkc · Nov 12, 2009, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

You come on these forums and you have most people yelling that any armour and any title is worth nothing.
Unless it's a specific PvP title.
The rewards are worth nothing, yet the way to them is still designed as if they actually mattered.

Design will always shape the way the game is actually played. It doesn't matter that people say they consider the titles as nothing, because once they sit in front of GW they will still pursue them!

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Plus GW is going to be dead in 2 years.
Which means the players need to earn their bonuses by that time. Even some players that played since the start will not max out the titles in these 6 years!
Imagine if somebody just starts playing.

You assume that GW2 will be pitched as a grind junkie's game. You may be right; in which case, it doesn't matter to me as I won't be buying it anyway. But I hope you are wrong.
Also, if someone just started playing maybe he shouldn't expect the same bonuses as someone who played since 2005.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

That would mean that there are better options than SF.
So if they are, why nerf it?

If I am trying to achieve maximum efficiency, I'll use the best options.
If am playing for fun, I'll use the what I have fun with.

Perhaps you have amnesia. This argument was repeated over and over during the UB debate. Here goes:

For some people, fun involves attempting to improve. Attempting to overcome challenges. Attempting to play the game well. However, SF stands out like a huge neon sign: USE THIS TO IMPROVE TO MAX INSTANTLY. It also beats the challenge in question to the amount of removing it completely. That is boring.

Or maybe you have "fun" with some stupid build like a Mending blood necro. Others don't, in fact I think most people think that would make for a horrible game experience. But with SF, every other build is a Mending blood necro. That is boring.

So you can choose between boring and boring. That is bad.

Nerf SF.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Yeah, partying BLOSSOMED after Ursan was killed!
Well, it actually did.
With SF.

Actually, the only thing that made partying blossom lately (outside event related content) was Zaishen quests.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Perhaps I should have put a "massive" before the imba in this case. PvE is "imba" as in "horrendously broken beyond *#%*ing belief". There are tons of massively powerful, brainless builds in this side of the game.

While it was still horrendous implementation, the premise behind Ursan was pretty interesting: an attempt to make all classes equally desired. Unfortunately, they did not follow up on balancing classes. Not only that they buffed PvE skills as well.

But none of that's going to get fixed. The only way that ANet is (sadly) making more classes viable is buffing them to overpowered and back. They do not take a broader view of the game. They only respond to what the mob wants changed the most.

I'd only appreciate the nerf if it was the start of a snowball effect that lead up to the balancing of the game, but seeing ANet openly endorsing farming, that's really never going to happen.

As is, for me, nerfing SF is like trying to put out a burning house with a drop of water.

Ursan didn't make all classes equally powerful. It made all characters almost equally powerful, on the condition that they changed their class to ursan.

You are right - but consider what skills we are talking about.

Tier 1
Shadow Form

Tier 2
Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support
Pain Inverter
Signet of Spirits

Tier 3
Cry of Pain
Asuran Scan
Great Dwarf Weapon
There's Nothing to Fear
Ray of Judgment

Those are just examples of overpowered skills. There are a few more in tiers 2 and lots more in tier 3. Yes they are all imba and affects PvE stupidly. But come on, it's PvE. It's meant to give you a challenge, sure, and I'd like it to be more meaningful, but it's also meant to be casual fun.
The tier 3 skills, most of them anyway, are completely ok. They are hilarious to use and while they can be used in stupid gimmick builds, they are more efficient when used side by side with normal skills (by which I mean for example, as soon as you have TNTF you are playing a gimmick, sure, but it's still true that the paragon in question has other stuff he relies on as well - TNTF is a boost, but it's not the leverage that makes his entire build work).
The tier 2 skills could be dampened until they fell into tier 3. Pain Inverter should not be the only thing you need to kill basically any boss in the game. And so on.
But Shadow Form, being alone in tier 1, isn't like those at all. It is the single skill that allows you to run calmly through an entire dungeon or elite area and kill the end boss without ever taking a single point of damage. It confers near-complete invulnerability for as long as you can repeat a very simple pattern of mouse clicks. It gives an infinite tanking potential for any sort of normal and most non-normal enemies. It can be defeated by a very small number of skills or circumstances, most of which can be easily bypassed.

Reformed · Nov 12, 2009, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Or maybe you have "fun" with some stupid build like a Mending blood necro. Others don't, in fact I think most people think that would make for a horrible game experience. But with SF, every other build is a Mending blood necro. That is boring.

Writing things like this just to make a point is obnoxious. Necromancers were and still are one of the most versatile professions for party formation. If you understand their role there is no PvE situation I can think of where one doesn't fit. Just this last weekend I went 2+6 on mine to do SoO on a guild run with none of those crutch builds like sab/discord. We did it for fun, what a concept, and no SFers were harmed in the process. Was it slower than a 600 team? Probably, but I bridge pull Fendi to avoid the channel spike which adds a good 30 minutes to the time. I don't see guildies very often anymore so this was a welcome change of pace. Claiming you can't get groups or all other builds suck in comparison is absurd and complete hysteria. The truth is you just can't be bothered to try.

qvtkc · Nov 12, 2009, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

Writing things like this just to make a point is obnoxious. Necromancers were and still are one of the most versatile professions for party formation. If you understand their role there is no PvE situation I can think of where one doesn't fit. Just this last weekend I went 2+6 on mine to do SoO on a guild run with none of those crutch builds like sab/discord. We did it for fun, what a concept, and no SFers were harmed in the process. Was it slower than a 600 team? Probably, but I bridge pull Fendi to avoid the channel spike which adds a good 30 minutes to the time. I don't see guildies very often anymore so this was a welcome change of pace. Claiming you can't get groups or all other builds suck in comparison is absurd and complete hysteria. The truth is you just can't be bothered to try.

bro I love necros, don't get me wrong. I just think that with all that versatility it's a waste to rely on Vampiric Gaze and Life Transfer.

I don't see what being a necro has to do with pulling Fendi to the bridge, though.

noneedforclevernames · Nov 12, 2009, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quit crying about the damn uw nerf. As you can clearly see, ecto prices are rising, and the supply of ectos is no longer being abused, therefore in that aspect it was good for the game. Additionally, being able to solo is just retarded in general.

upier · Nov 12, 2009, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Design will always shape the way the game is actually played. It doesn't matter that people say they consider the titles as nothing, because once they sit in front of GW they will still pursue them!

So if people will do them regardless of anything, why does it matter if they are worth less (or worthless) or not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

You assume that GW2 will be pitched as a grind junkie's game. You may be right; in which case, it doesn't matter to me as I won't be buying it anyway. But I hope you are wrong.
Also, if someone just started playing maybe he shouldn't expect the same bonuses as someone who played since 2005.

Yeah that will make a splash!
GW2! The game where you can get all the bonuses only if you ground your ass off in the casually advertised GW1 for 6 years!

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Perhaps you have amnesia. This argument was repeated over and over during the UB debate. Here goes:

For some people, fun involves attempting to improve. Attempting to overcome challenges. Attempting to play the game well. However, SF stands out like a huge neon sign: USE THIS TO IMPROVE TO MAX INSTANTLY. It also beats the challenge in question to the amount of removing it completely. That is boring.

Or maybe you have "fun" with some stupid build like a Mending blood necro. Others don't, in fact I think most people think that would make for a horrible game experience. But with SF, every other build is a Mending blood necro. That is boring.

So you can choose between boring and boring. That is bad.

Nerf SF.

All of PvE was beaten already. Not only that, it's really easy. So seeking challenge in PvE is like trying to swim in the kiddy pool.
Which means that the only way to improve is to be faster.
SF does not prevent that.

Plus (based on your first quote) won't people do these things regardless of the fact that someone else does them better?

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Actually, the only thing that made partying blossom lately (outside event related content) was Zaishen quests.

Yeah because everyone does SCs with heroes!

Reformed · Nov 12, 2009, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

I don't see what being a necro has to do with pulling Fendi to the bridge, though.

That wasn't my point, the point was that I am one of those weird people who doesn't care how long something takes so long as it's fun. It was a slightly different scenario back when I religiously did 4-4-4 Deep. Even then though it was less about drops and more about blowing things up. That for me is what GW is all about, not about what some other guy/gal is doing on their Sin or whatever the current flavor of the month is. If someone wants to turn content into a part time job in the vain hope they will get a 1% drop or an Olympic event for clear times then more power to them. It has absolutely zero impact on me.

qvtkc · Nov 12, 2009, 03:54 PM // 15:54

You make no sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So if people will do them regardless of anything, why does it matter if they are worth less (or worthless) or not?

It doesn't. I never said it did. But since they are the baseline due to being possible to achieve to anyone who grinds enough, they invite to grind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Yeah that will make a splash!
GW2! The game where you can get all the bonuses only if you ground your ass off in the casually advertised GW1 for 6 years!

Being a dedicated player isn't the same as being a grind monkey.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

All of PvE was beaten already. Not only that, it's really easy. So seeking challenge in PvE is like trying to swim in the kiddy pool.
Which means that the only way to improve is to be faster.
SF does not prevent that.

It does, actually. Once you put on SF, it's as good as it gets - it doesn't get any better than that. Try as you might, some other method no matter how skillfully you play it, is inferior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Plus (based on your first quote) won't people do these things regardless of the fact that someone else does them better?

Yes, people will choose between boring and boring. Some will choose boring, others will choose boring. Both choices are, unfortunately, boring, which doesn't make a good selling argument for GW2 at all.

"Buy GW2, sequel to boring! Now with more boredom!"

Yeah sounds great.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Yeah because everyone does SCs with heroes!

Derp
Most people don't do SC at all. And SC isn't the problem, either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

That wasn't my point, the point was that I am one of those weird people who doesn't care how long something takes so long as it's fun. It was a slightly different scenario back when I religiously did 4-4-4 Deep. Even then though it was less about drops and more about blowing things up. That for me is what GW is all about, not about what some other guy/gal is doing on their Sin or whatever the current flavor of the month is. If someone wants to turn content into a part time job in the vain hope they will get a 1% drop or an Olympic event for clear times then more power to them. It has absolutely zero impact on me.

I agree with you, what other people do has no impact whatsoever on me (unless they are in my team).

That has nothing to do with what I could be doing, though.

Martin Alvito · Nov 12, 2009, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

As I have said many times before - broken things such as SF or Ursan or whatever are actually a way to reduce the grind.

You still just don't get it. Making you do easy stuff over and over and over again is grind. Making the content hard is a challenge.

It's fine for players to find ways to make the content easy over time. But the only way that the game stays fresh is if the developers beat those efforts back once they become widespread, so that players are always forced to find new ways to get an edge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And that also means that after a player obtains a rare item, they do not leave the market, but they compete for the next one. So if you have 10 richest people in the game competing for an Oni, you might get the same 10 richest people competing for a Yeti. So everyone that wants in need to be able to compete with those.

People spend their Yetis to get Zheds. Once someone owns a mini, it doesn't disappear from the system. If we're talking about clean minis, it still doesn't disappear until someone actually dedicates it - at which point it becomes dedicated and loses some value. I reiterate: this is a much larger group of players than you seem to think it is. There's a huge number of names that have come and gone in High End over the last few years - thousands and thousands. Your "massive majority" is a chimera, I'm afraid. The number of hardcore grinders that go after GWAMM may be larger than the high-end community, but not by the huge factor you seem to think it is.

Within the high-end community, the minority already owning the items benefit and the vast majority lose out. As noted, I happen to be in the minority that wins...and it sucks. The time investment necessary to get an Oni by actually playing the game has multiplied by a factor of seven since the SF bomb went off. (The good ways of making money are faster than UWSC, and haven't gotten more valuable despite the inflation.) That's a strong deterrent to actually playing the game.

It's great if you want to sit in Kamadan all day, because your margins widen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

GW really isn't a game that caters e-peen. And for many of the players out there that's actually it's strength. Despite the fact that many of us waste millions on crap, at the end of the day I always felt that the general consensus was that the system that says max daggers are 7-17 rather than having a few that are 15-25 is a good thing.

I agree with you here, but if you're going to institute this system it's essential to provide goals that keep people around. Highly scarce items do a good job of providing those end goals for players, and GW came up with a solid compromise by making them scarce but also making them purely eye candy.

The HoM made a hash of this by artificially creating demand for in-game cash. People feel like they have to have armors, Destroyer/Tormented weapons and minis or they will miss out in the next game. The result is a whiny group that wants the devs to make it easy to acquire all those things. After all, if they liked farming they'd already be farmers. The HoM was a poor idea, but catering to the whining just compounds the error. It simply demonstrates once again that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, promoting more community whining.

People wonder why the community is terrible and full of bellyaching? ANet made it that way. The stimulus/response model at work. You want something to get done, you don't have to improve at the game. Just get enough people to complain about it loudly enough and long enough.

While I'd like to become eight times more efficient at playing GW, that's impossible. There isn't that much room to give. So I work the system. Worked well for your group of players, didn't it?

upier · Nov 12, 2009, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

It doesn't. I never said it did. But since they are the baseline due to being possible to achieve to anyone who grinds enough, they invite to grind.

So you are advertising that a game where people don't actually play it?
You'd rather have goals that are unattainable?

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Being a dedicated player isn't the same as being a grind monkey.

Maybe you'll have people looking at GW2 and thinking that they don't want it because they didn't play GW1 which would allow them to get all the bonuses?
That's the issues with goals that are unattainable in GW1 and their potential effect on GW2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

It does, actually. Once you put on SF, it's as good as it gets - it doesn't get any better than that. Try as you might, some other method no matter how skillfully you play it, is inferior.

If you win - it's as good as it gets.
And you can win with an empty skillbar.
Foes do not get magically harder in PvE. So as I have said, the only way to improve in PvE is to beat them faster. And SF does not stop you in doing that. It just means that you will include SF in your team build.
The same that you would include other best options.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Yes, people will choose between boring and boring. Some will choose boring, others will choose boring. Both choices are, unfortunately, boring, which doesn't make a good selling argument for GW2 at all.

"Buy GW2, sequel to boring! Now with more boredom!"

Yeah sounds great.

Yes, some people will have to choose between boring and boring.
But some people will have to choose between fun and fun.
Just because something isn't fun to you, does not mean it not fun for everyone.

So if something being fun should be a factor, can you accept that the option that isn't fun to you wins?
And if you can't - why should someone else give up their fun then?

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Most people don't do SC at all. And SC isn't the problem, either.

Something as overpowered as SF is perfect as since it can negate some of the issues that could arise from playing with people you do not know.
If the build requires you to do it all, do you really want to pick up some random guy?
And if you do not want to pick up a random guy, how does that influence partying?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

You still just don't get it. Making you do easy stuff over and over and over again is grind. Making the content hard is a challenge.

It's fine for players to find ways to make the content easy over time. But the only way that the game stays fresh is if the developers beat those efforts back once they become widespread, so that players are always forced to find new ways to get an edge.

Of course it's grind.
And as I have said - I would rather not have it in the game.
But as long as it is in the game - I would rather have less grind. And crap such as SF achieves that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

People spend their Yetis to get Zheds. Once someone owns a mini, it doesn't disappear from the system. If we're talking about clean minis, it still doesn't disappear until someone actually dedicates it - at which point it becomes dedicated and loses some value. I reiterate: this is a much larger group of players than you seem to think it is. There's a huge number of names that have come and gone in High End over the last few years - thousands and thousands. Your "massive majority" is a chimera, I'm afraid. The number of hardcore grinders that go after GWAMM may be larger than the high-end community, but not by the huge factor you seem to think it is.

Within the high-end community, the minority already owning the items benefit and the vast majority lose out. As noted, I happen to be in the minority that wins...and it sucks. The time investment necessary to get an Oni by actually playing the game has multiplied by a factor of seven since the SF bomb went off. (The good ways of making money are faster than UWSC, and haven't gotten more valuable despite the inflation.) That's a strong deterrent to actually playing the game.

It's great if you want to sit in Kamadan all day, because your margins widen.

How many Zheds are there in the game?
How many Oni?

Based on those numbers, your Average Joe should reasonably expect that they will never own it. And what this influx of goods causes is that the items that your Average Joe will probably never own, get more expensive.
Now this would be an issue if owning a Zhed would somehow play a role.
It does not.
What does play a role is maxing those 30 titles to get God.
And this influx of goods makes this easier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

I agree with you here, but if you're going to institute this system it's essential to provide goals that keep people around. Highly scarce items do a good job of providing those end goals for players, and GW came up with a solid compromise by making them scarce but also making them purely eye candy.

The HoM made a hash of this by artificially creating demand for in-game cash. People feel like they have to have armors, Destroyer/Tormented weapons and minis or they will miss out in the next game. The result is a whiny group that wants the devs to make it easy to acquire all those things. After all, if they liked farming they'd already be farmers. The HoM was a poor idea, but catering to the whining just compounds the error. It simply demonstrates once again that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, promoting more community whining.

People wonder why the community is terrible and full of bellyaching? ANet made it that way. The stimulus/response model at work. You want something to get done, you don't have to improve at the game. Just get enough people to complain about it loudly enough and long enough.

While I'd like to become eight times more efficient at playing GW, that's impossible. There isn't that much room to give. So I work the system. Worked well for your group of players, didn't it?

Getting God/full HoM is that goal that will keep people around.
Not only is there no limited supply of this goal - meaning that anyone everyone that works hard will get it, contrary to a rare mini where you can only get it if someone is selling it - it's also a goal that is relatively achievable. Sure, some of the grind needed for it is still a bit out there - that is why I do not mind the shortcuts - but it's nowhere near the grind needed to be able to participate in the high end market.

That's why I feel that a full HoM or God is something that should be available to the masses. A lot of the titles, such as VQing, doing missions, capping elites, mapping, ... promote playing the game. And this is what we want. We want people to play the game.
Getting people to get Zhed does not promote playing the game.

Martin Alvito · Nov 12, 2009, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Of course it's grind.
And as I have said - I would rather not have it in the game.
But as long as it is in the game - I would rather have less grind. And crap such as SF achieves that.

No, it doesn't. Blow up SF and people have to find a new way to quickly beat content. That development process isn't grind. It's challenging and stimulating.

Skill balances are effectively dirt cheap content. That's why game companies love them. It's a lot cheaper to nerf skills than create new monsters, much less make a new area from scratch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

How many Zheds are there in the game?
How many Oni?

70 and over 900, respectively. Add up all the really rare minis and you've got about four thousand items. That assumes that Ghostly and Polar Bear are both in the low hundreds, which I believe is a safe bet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Based on those numbers, your Average Joe should reasonably expect that they will never own it. And what this influx of goods causes is that the items that your Average Joe will probably never own, get more expensive.

Does Average Joe have hundreds of hours to invest grinding GWAMM? Average Joe could have grinded up a whole lot of in-game cash in that time a couple of years ago. But Average Joe doesn't play in the High End markets. He doesn't get GWAMM either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Getting God/full HoM is that goal that will keep people around.

No, it isn't. People get GWAMM and quit. I've seen that pattern too many times. The limited supply of the miniatures and multiple end goals is what makes the system work. The supply keeps renewing itself because eventually someone gets more goodies than an owner has sense and the owner sells the pet. The supply may be fixed, but the items move around quite a bit. Those thousands of items have been owned by many more thousands of players that don't own them now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Sure, some of the grind needed for it is still a bit out there - that is why I do not mind the shortcuts - but it's nowhere near the grind needed to be able to participate in the high end market.

The only reason that the entrance grind is so prohibitive now is SF. You're looking at hundreds of hours of gameplay just to have the capital to move Onis around. It wasn't that way until people started farming UW into the ground. I could grind the stack of ecto needed to purchase an undedicated Oni in twelve hours, back when people still paid decent prices for dungeon runs.

Now that same method would take a couple hundred. Some of that is the decreased value of runs due to competition, but most of it is the increase in item prices that SF has caused.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Getting people to get Zhed does not promote playing the game.

Again, the reason for that is that playing the game no longer pays well enough. The persistence of SF and the UWSC is directly to blame.